topic Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support in Alpha & NEX interchangeable lens cameras

HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

aardvark7 — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 18:33:59 GMT

I'm a professional photographer and have found the new flash to shutdown within a very short time for overheating. This hasn't happened to me with the HVL-F58AM or the Minolta 5600HS before.

I need a solution and I need it NOW!!!

Preferably, I would like to be able to turn of the protection and use my own common sense, but there is no instructions as to whether this might be possible. I know when the Nikon SB900 had similar issues when launched they do have the facility.

Trying to get support from Sony is like trying to pull teeth. All I get is completely irrelevant answers and, at the moment, I'm hanging on the phone waiting for 'an agent to be with me shortly'.

Is there anyone at Sony who can help, or does anyone know a dirct line?

HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

Thalamus. — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 18:47:45 GMT

Hi pekelly38,

welcome to Questions & Answers..:smileyhappy:

The only contact details that we have are probably the ones you have already tried - Contact Sony support

Unfortunately this is a user form so you are unlikely to get a direct response from Sony here, however we can see if one of our contacts within Sony can offer a solution that may help resolve your flash/camera problem..

As soon as we receive a reply we will post again..

HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

alphaholic — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 20:08:54 GMT

Hi pekelly 38

1st: Sorry for my poor english 😉

I know the problem with almost every flash. In your case it`s may be a problem with the batteries because it`s a very strong flast which needs lots of power. Waht can you do?

-choose a battery with high mAh, par example 2000 or 2500. These batteries wil not heat up this fast

-choos the camerasettings so that you dont need 100% of the flashpower

-if your flash seams to be overheatet, change the batteries, if these are cold, the flash will work longer

I think, the key is the strength of the batteries, but the other things will help too.

regards from Switzerland!

alphaholic

Message was edited by: alphaholic

Via Manolo:

Manual HVL-F60M: Do not use the flash for 20 times in a row or in rapid succession to

prevent camera and flash unit may heat or deteriorate (if the level of

intensity is 1/32, 40 times in a row).

Discontinue the use of the flash unit and allow it to cool for at least 10 minutes

if the flash is activated for a number of times than the limit allowed

in rapid succession.

Message was edited by: alphaholic

HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

Thalamus. — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 12:16:05 GMT

Hi Aardvark7,

on checking with Sony it seems that there is not an option to disable the auto shut off as this is designed to protect the product..

So I hope the information posted above offers you some form of workaround..:smileyhappy:

Edit: Another option that has been suggested is when the flash shuts down try to changing the batteries for a fresh cool set..:smileyconfused:

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

aardvark7 — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 13:48:40 GMT

Thanks for the help, but I hope you realise that I am a professional photographer and have a great deal of experience with flash. That the F60 shuts down on me, yet it was never an issue with the F58 or 5600 tells me that Sony have got it wrong.

Also, I know it is not a unit problem as it happens with both I own.

I NEED a way to turn the protection off. Such is available on the Nikon SB900 (which had a very similar problem when released), so I see no reason why Sony cannot do likewise.

HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

Thalamus. — Wed, 28 Nov 2012 16:39:42 GMT

Hi aardvark7,

the feedback you have received, other than from me, is from very competent photographers..:smileywink:

Another option that may help is to try using an external power supply, something like the Sony FA-EB1AM, to power the flash..:smileyconfused:

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

aardvark7 — Wed, 28 Nov 2012 17:19:13 GMT

Thanks Thalamus,

I could try that, but it requires greater expense and, more importantly, is really awkward in a wedding environment. It's bad enough with two pro DSLRs and glass, but having two packs on my waist and curly wires which can't easily be put down is the stuff of nightmares.

In the meantime, however, I have been speaking to a Sony employee (not part of the derisory support system) who tells me that this is a known issue; that is it is not just known as part of the flash, but that it compromises the use!

If Sony are serious about challenging Canon and Nikon they need to avoid these mistakes if possible but, more importantly, address them appropriately and quickly when they become aware. To keep silent and pretend it doesn't happen is not going to win any friends and likely lose them the foothold they have.

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

Thalamus. — Wed, 28 Nov 2012 17:56:54 GMT

aardvark7 wrote:

Thanks Thalamus,

Hmm doesn't sound like a sensible option now..

aardvark7 wrote:

Lets hope the Sony employee can help you achieve a solution to this issue..:smileyhappy:

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

cmosse — Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:16:50 GMT

Hello aardwark7

the most effective workaround to counteract the risk of overheat in practical use during a shooting is to just use a higher manual ISO setting (e.g. ISO 800 instead of ISO200 -> flash will only need 1/4 of its GN) ) setting on the camera.This will prevent that the flash has to fire with very high output levels and therefore minimizes the heat up of the flash tube.

Also do not use bounce flash if you know that you need to take a lot of flash images in short sequence as the flash will have to output much more energy in bounce position to illuminate the scene.

Finally the use of clip on softeners/diffusors can increase the heat up effect of the flash tube housing.

Best Regards

Michael

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

Thalamus. — Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:22:24 GMT

Hi aardwark7,

did you get any further information from the Sony emplyee that you were speaking with.?

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

mikeyp2000 — Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:14:28 GMT

Aardvark, I am considering purchasing a f60 to replace my f58.

Could you describe the circumstances where the f60 overheats but your older flashes do not?

For reference, my flash shooting is typically indoors with bounce of the ceiling with normal domestic white ceilings or sometimes in small halls, again with white ceilings. In these circumstances I use ISO 200-800 f2.8 - f5.6 on my a99. The only time I use directly flash is for HSS fill flash in outdoor sunny conditions.

Both of these situations demand a lot from the flash power output. Is this similar to the circumstances where you see the f60 overheating?

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

aardvark7 — Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:15:07 GMT

Sorry, Thalamus, but no they haven't come back to me. I suspect it is more down to him not being given the information, rather than his forgetting, but I keep hoping!

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

aardvark7 — Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:23:47 GMT

Mikey, the occasions are entirely under the set up you describe. As you say, it is
demanding on the flash, but I never had the trouble with my 58 on the A900.

That said, I have a suspicion that the A99 is set up so the flash deliberately puts
out more power to compensate for the SLT light loss and, in my experience, it
also exposes better where the A900 tended to underexpose. Add the two things
together and you can put a huge extra demand on the flash and that is why it
overheats.

I do understand the reason for the safety, but I'd like the option in the same
way the Nikon users can disable the auto cut-off and simply monitor the
temperature manually.

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

aardvark7 — Wed, 06 Feb 2013 15:58:07 GMT

An update on a shoot yesterday which I think makes for a good indicator, as it wasn't very demanding in terms of number of shots.

The room was not particularly well lit (just your average hotel conference room) and the pictures were from a variety of distances, although mainly from about 12 feet/ 4 metres.

I shot at f5.6 - f 9 and ISO 1600 and got off 37 shots between 15.36 and 16.01 when overheating kicked in.

37 shots in 25 minutes!!!???!!!

The last 10 shots cover 8 minutes and 6 of them were in tight to the person!!!!!!

This is absolutely outrageous and I need a solution. The only other option would appear to switch brands entirely as I am running the real risk of missing important shots at present.

If anyone reading this forum has any contact with the hierarchy at Sony would they please ask them to look at this URGENTLY!!!!

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

cmosse — Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:10:21 GMT

The reflector setting will also have an impact on the auto thermal cut off. I did a small test and even changing from 24 (wide angle ) to 35mm will increase # of flashes for more than 15%.

Test:

flash set to M with full output ("1/1"), flash was fired with test knob when charging lamp lit up again:

with reflector set to 24mm: 30x flashes

wirh reflector set to 35mm: 35 flashes

Looking at some test a Nikon user did I see it is bascially on same level:

http://photo-tips-online.com/test/nikon-sb-700-vs-sb-900-overheating-thermal-cut-out/

So in addition to the two most relevant shooting tips to avoid thermal protection auto pwer off (use higher ISO, do not bounce) a 3rd recommendation is to avoid using the flash at wide reflector setting.

Michael

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

aardvark7 — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 10:58:27 GMT

Your test, cmosse, only confirms that there is something intrinsically wrong with both my flash units (although that seems hard to accept I was so unlucky!).

As I demonstrated, I took 37 shots, most of which were at greater than 40mm and far less than full power in 25 minutes and the flash shut down.

Both you and this test have 35 shots at full power in just a few minutes before shut down.

What makes it worse is that it is in England in winter. Heaven knows what this will be like if we have a hot summer. I'll be lucky if I get off a couple before the 'protection' kicks in!!!

Furthermore, it seems that Sony are using the 'it will vary with conditions' to get out of any obligation.

This flash is a piece of junk and needs to have the option to override the protection, in the same way as the Nikon SB900.

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

mikeyp2000 — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:23:52 GMT

Cmosse - can you confirm which flash you were using in your test? Also, which batteries?

Aardvark - this is a distressing story and it is certainly putting me off buying a f60 to replace my f58, despite the poor physical security of my adp-maa that I use to mount the f58 on my a99. I suppose it is possible your f60 has a faulty heat sensor and it is also possible that two f60s have the same problem if they came from a batch made with a batch of faulty heat sensors. What are the serial numbers?

Also, aardvark, which batteries are you using? At the point the flash goes into heat shutdown, is the flash tube hot or the batteries? (Or both?)

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

aardvark7 — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 12:03:12 GMT

Mikey, The serial numbers are:1921514 and 2021352, so may or may not be from a simiar production run.

I use Sanyo Eneloops as I've had no trouble from them in any other previous environment. In addition, they are barely above ambient temperature when removed after overheat. Some have mentioned batteries can be the cause, but I would have expected them to be at least as warm as from the recharger to have an effect, but this is not the case.

However, following cmosse's posting I thought, out of curiosity, that I should try the same test on my units as they had not been used for a day and my house is quite cool. The result has made me wonder about the cause of the issue and if there is any way to resolve it, other than physically by-passing the circuitry if it can be recognised.

Basically I did as suggested set on 35mm zoom and full power manual and fired away. Surprisingly, they fired for 38 and 40 shots before shutdown. That is more than I achieved in real world use and in a fraction of the time!

My conclusion is, therefore, that the problem is not so much the level the protection is set, but rather the ventilation to allow recovery. Clearly, the heat continually builds and has nowhere to dissipate which means that you actually get less use the longer the time between shots!!!

Other than drilling holes through the case or somehow installing my own heatsink I can't see a way around it. Indeed, if Sony could point me in the right direction, I woud certainly contemplate doing the latter. I'd rather have an invalid warranty and a flash I could use, than the current state of affairs!

Re: HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

cmosse — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 13:45:54 GMT

I am using HVL-F60M, purchased 1 month ago, batteries are Sanyo Eneloop. Overheat is not caused by batteries.

HVL-F60M overheating and useless support

cmosse — Thu, 07 Feb 2013 14:13:18 GMT

I did a test with the Remote Camera Control software interval mode to get more reproduceable results:

image taken each 30 seconds
# of frames: 60
flash set to manual power
flash reflector set to cover 35mm field of view

Results:

when set to 1/1 power: 30 images before overheat (within 15 minutes)
when set to 1/2 power: 54 images before overheat (within 27 minutes)

I think in your case it is still an issue that the flash fires with full output too often.

Update:

When setting the flash to 1/4 output it was possible to take 90 images at even 15sec interval (within 22minutes) - and probably a lot more because I quit the Remote Control software after 90 had been reached.

Message was edited by: cmosse