topic FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct in Camcorders

FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

chasteven — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 05:49:48 GMT

On the Picture Profile 10,HDR 2020 the setting does not reproduce red correctly if this is the main part of the image.Taking video of London Buses and the red has an orange/ pink tinge

Switching to Rec 709 or taking stills is fine.

Is the camcorder faulty( one week old)

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

IamNic — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 11:00:32 GMT

Hello @chasteven,

that is normal - the color representation depends on different factors, most importantly the screen you are viewing the video on.

If your screen and the playback hardware do not support bt 2020, you won't see accurate colors.

You can though color grade bt 2020 videos to make them look more like the same video shot as rec 709 video.

This video explains it quite well:

- Nic

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

chasteven — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 12:26:09 GMT

Thank you for your reply.The TV (Panasonic TX902) fully supports HLG and 2020.The camcorder has three HLG settings.Option 1( Picture Profile No 10 is fixed to the European Standards) and is the one I use.The camcorder confirms that it is recording in HLG(HDR) and 2020 colour space.

On the viewfinder and screen I can clearly see that the reds are not correct.This is particularly noticeable on things like cars and busses.Pillar Box red has this distinct milky red appearance.No amount of adjustment corrects this within the various settings offered.

The TV instantly recognizes the HLG(HDR) and 2020 but obviously it cannot play back correct colour if it was not recorded.correctly.

Switch to 709 or take stills and the picture is fine.

I can clearly see the advantages of HLG and 2020 but at the moment with this red issue I am not able to see its full benefit.

According to the manual I should not notice any change to the colours themselves using HLG and 2020!

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

IamNic — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 12:43:18 GMT

Hello @chasteven,

@chasteven schrieb:

No amount of adjustment corrects this within the various settings offered.

with color correction I was not referring to any in-camera settings. I was referring to post-production changes performed in a video editing software of your choice.

- Nic

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

chasteven — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 12:58:29 GMT

Would I be correct in saying that on Picture Profile 10 the colours on the screen/viefinder should be correct?

Perhaps I have a rogue machine.Only had it 8 days!

My dealer is happy to replace

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

IamNic — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 13:16:26 GMT

Hello @chasteven,

I am very confident your camera does show correctly what it is supposed to show on the screen.

If what it shows matched what you see with the naked eye is a completly different story.

It depends on more settings than just the rec 709 or bt 2020 setting.

Since I have changed my Picture profiles from the factory settings - would you mind sharing what it is set to on your device?

Also yes - if I switch to bt 2020 reds (or rather which looked red with the rec 709 setting) look more pink on the cameras display.

The "Color Phase" (in-camera) setting though can change that.

- Nic

P.S.: Switch trough the different S-Log modes and you will also see that colors on the screen won't match what you see IRL. That has to do with what these modes are intended for (as I said - some modes are meant for color correction during post processing).

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

chasteven — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 15:51:05 GMT

Thank you for your reply.Sorry i was not able to reply till now as i was at a meeting and needed to be in front of the camcorder.

The Settings(Manufacturers on Profile 10) are these

Black Level 0

Gamma HLG

black gamma middle. level 0

knee manual

colour mode bt2020

saturation 0

colour phase 0

colour depth all 0

colour correction off

wb shift lb-cc

detail level 0

I have been able to connect the camcorder to the TV and can confirm that the milky reds are the same when connected to the TV as when showed on the OLED monitor and pull out screen.The playback on the TV is a faithful reproduction of what I am seeing before recording.

Only the 709 mode,switching the gamma setting off or recording a still picture shows the red correctly.

As the ability to record 2020 with HLG is a major feature of this camcorder(and the reason I bought it to replace the previous 4K Sony camcorder HDRX1000) I find it incredible that it is unable to monitor and record correct colours.

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

IamNic — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 16:03:33 GMT

Hi @chasteven,

did you try to adjust the "color-phase"-setting?

That should resolve your issue in-camera.

Also HLG3 is my preferred setting by the way.

As I said before - the camera does shot exactly what it is supposed to. If you choose to not perform color correction during post processing, it is not the cameras fault and you need to select different settings on the camera.

Watch this video as reference:

- Nic

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

chasteven — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 16:16:04 GMT

I have not adjusted the colour phase setting.What should I adjust it to please?

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

IamNic — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 16:23:23 GMT

Hi @chasteven,

I found that reds became less pink by setting it to a value lower than 0 (e.g. -7). Though that also changes other colors.

But first try and see if selecting HLG3 resolves your issue. I found that mode to give a better color representation.

- Nic

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

chasteven — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 17:02:44 GMT

Thank you Nic.The changes to the Gamma only make slight differences.Is there any settings regarding the colour available(eg chart) that I could use to get the colours correct since by correcting red I will upset other colours.If Sony are to be believed then setting option 10 should get me the correct results since they conform to the same standards as my TV but in the real world this is not the case.

I have contacted Sony regarding this issue and they are investigating but have never heard of it before!

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

IamNic — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 17:15:01 GMT

Hello @chasteven,

it still seems to me that you are not understanding what a LOG profile is and how the color spaces rec 709 and bt 2020 differ.

What I can tell you though is, that your camcorder is not broken from what I can tell.

I am sadly no native english speaker, so I struggle to explain to you better why the colors looks off if you switch to bt 2020 - I will try to find an article or a video which can explain it to you.

- Nic

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

chasteven — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 17:16:32 GMT

2020 gives a far wider range of colours than 709 in my understanding .I do not see how it is changing a colour on the factory preset.Surely customers would not be buying them with HDR 2020 on board if there were these issues?

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

IamNic — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 18:42:55 GMT

Hello @chasteven,

did you set up your TV correctly, so it will interpret the bt 2020 signal correctly?

- Nic

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

chasteven — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 22:03:06 GMT

The TV plays 4K Blu Ray without any problems.

I will await the response from Sony but I think that there is someting wrong with the imaging chip when recording 4K HDR with 2020 colourspace.I have not found any posts with people having similar issues,although I will post a question myself.

To summarise

Reds are not correct when monitoring through the viefinder or screen or connected to the TV.

Changing the HLG settings only makes marginal differences

Playback of the recording is exactly the same as the monitored one

Only REC 709 and still picture record has the correct colour.

Thank you for your efforts in trying to sort this issue for me

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

IamNic — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 22:16:25 GMT

Hello @chasteven,

I just want to save you from wasting time - your camcorder is not broken and a replacement will show the same color representation when viewing it on the camera.

My question was, if you set your TV up correctly, so it applies the necessary post-processing to the bt 2020 file.

Since Hybrid Log Gamma doesn't get "seen" as HDR by the TV automatically, you have to set your TV up accordingly, otherwise it doesn't "know" it is receiving a HLG signal and doesn't apply the post processing necessary to represent the colors correctly.

What you see on the screen/viewfinder is what someone watching on a normal SDR-screen would see (from what I understand). As explained by the man in the first video I linked - you have to tell the screen what color space you are "feeding" into it, otherwise the colors will be off.

He explains that by setting the TV to rec 709 first and feeding it bt 2020 as signal (colors are shown wrong) - then he sets the TV to bt 2020 and repeats the process, this time the other way round.

If I were you I would get in contact with Panasonic and ask them what you have to set up in order to see a correct color representation if you feed the TV bt 2020 as signal.

Also sorry for the misunderstanding in the beginning (first few comments) where I recommended to color grade the footage or change the in-camera settings to mimick a rec 709 look while recording bt 2020 - I thought you are trying to watch the bt 2020 footage on a normal screen without support for the color space - then in fact you would need to manually change it.

- Nic

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

chasteven — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 22:27:28 GMT

The Panasonic is playing back HDR 2020 correctly .This is confirmed by calling up the info on the screen.As mentioned previously the Panasonic can only play back what the camcorder has recorded.As the recording being monitored has this issue then it is recorded and obviously played back with the issue on the TV.

I will await with interest comments from other users

Betreff: FDRAX 700. HDR 2020.Reds not correct

IamNic — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 23:16:04 GMT

Hello @chasteven,

@chasteven schrieb:

As mentioned previously the Panasonic can only play back what the camcorder has recorded.

that is true, yet the TV needs to do something to the signal - if it still looks like you see it on the camera, your TV isn't performing the necessary steps.

As I mentioned before, HLG isn't that much different to previous Log-formats (e.g. S-Log) - even S-Log can capture up to 14 steps of dynamic range, which is by definition also HDR, yet if you view it on your TV unprocessed, it looks milky and washed out.

Same goes for the camera screen - the camera shows you exactly what it captures - it is upon the playback device later down the line to do the necessary post-processing OR you have to color correct the footage to be suitable for SDR playback.

Maybe this explanation (sorry to link the same guy again, yet he explains it very understandable) will help you to get what I am trying to tell you:

- Nic